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Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
On 5/30/2023 12:42 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Apples...
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
..Oranges
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
You are likely concerned with far more than just \"switching time\".
Are the contacts break-before-make or make-before-break?
How closely are the actions of ALL poles synchronized
(i.e., does one pole complete its transition before
others have \"broken\" the existing connections)?
Does this degrade over time/temperature?
How much contact bounce?
Plus issues related to your application (e.g., arcing as a circuit
breaks) which hasn\'t been revealed, here.
etc.
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:11:14â¯AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 5/30/2023 12:42 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Apples...
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
..Oranges
I can\'t tell because i can\'t read the article.
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
You are likely concerned with far more than just \"switching time\".
Are the contacts break-before-make or make-before-break?
Yes, some of them short out one or more pins while switching.
How closely are the actions of ALL poles synchronized
(i.e., does one pole complete its transition before
others have \"broken\" the existing connections)?
Does this degrade over time/temperature?
How much contact bounce?
Plus issues related to your application (e.g., arcing as a circuit
breaks) which hasn\'t been revealed, here.
etc.
I am more concerned with the shorting time.
I can handle less than 1/3 second.
If longer, I would need one to break and one to switch the circuit.
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 3:42:20â¯AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Why would you want an article about toggle switching genetic circuits?
Genetic circuit is an assembly of biological parts encoding RNA or protein that enables individual cells to respond and interact with each other to perform some logical functions. Beyond gene replacement and regulation, CRISPR/Cas systems are now used for the construction of genetic circuits [53â55].
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
Ask the manufacturer:
https://www.jiushi-electronics.com/products/e-ten402-kn/
Be sure to understand the difference between contact bounce time and switching time before you waste a bunch of time.
The cheap buy-in price is no bargain if the switch is a piece of poorly designed junk that ends up being an embarrassment, a headache, and possibly causes damage.
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
Certainly no more than those times...
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:11:14â¯AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 5/30/2023 12:42 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Apples...
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
..Oranges
I can\'t tell because i can\'t read the article.
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
You are likely concerned with far more than just \"switching time\".
Are the contacts break-before-make or make-before-break?
Yes, some of them short out one or more pins while switching.
How closely are the actions of ALL poles synchronized
(i.e., does one pole complete its transition before
others have \"broken\" the existing connections)?
Does this degrade over time/temperature?
How much contact bounce?
Plus issues related to your application (e.g., arcing as a circuit
breaks) which hasn\'t been revealed, here.
etc.
I am more concerned with the shorting time.
I can handle less than 1/3 second.
If longer, I would need one to break and one to switch the circuit.
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:23:15â¯AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 3:42:20â¯AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Why would you want an article about toggle switching genetic circuits?
Genetic circuit is an assembly of biological parts encoding RNA or protein that enables individual cells to respond and interact with each other to perform some logical functions. Beyond gene replacement and regulation, CRISPR/Cas systems are now used for the construction of genetic circuits [53â55].
Yes, I didn\'t read it carefully. Only thing shown in google search.
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
Ask the manufacturer:
https://www.jiushi-electronics.com/products/e-ten402-kn/
Be sure to understand the difference between contact bounce time and switching time before you waste a bunch of time.
I guess I want to know bouncing half life time.
I wouldn\'t believe a thing they say. They\'re so damn dumb they don\'t give a DC contact rating, which is way way lower usually, they call out a bunch of AC applications and give that rating ( which is probably phony and untested ), and they say it\'s good for automotive which is DC last time I checked.
I am using upto 24V 6A.
The cheap buy-in price is no bargain if the switch is a piece of poorly designed junk that ends up being an embarrassment, a headache, and possibly causes damage.
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
Certainly no more than those times...
It\'s probably OK.
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 8:52:01â¯AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:23:15â¯AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 3:42:20â¯AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Why would you want an article about toggle switching genetic circuits?
Genetic circuit is an assembly of biological parts encoding RNA or protein that enables individual cells to respond and interact with each other to perform some logical functions. Beyond gene replacement and regulation, CRISPR/Cas systems are now used for the construction of genetic circuits [53â55].
Yes, I didn\'t read it carefully. Only thing shown in google search.
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
Ask the manufacturer:
https://www.jiushi-electronics.com/products/e-ten402-kn/
Be sure to understand the difference between contact bounce time and switching time before you waste a bunch of time.
I guess I want to know bouncing half life time.
I wouldn\'t believe a thing they say. They\'re so damn dumb they don\'t give a DC contact rating, which is way way lower usually, they call out a bunch of AC applications and give that rating ( which is probably phony and untested ), and they say it\'s good for automotive which is DC last time I checked.
I am using upto 24V 6A.
That\'s getting close to their AC spec. AC has higher current ratings because arcs, which wreck the contacts, are self-extinguishing due to the periodic zero crossings. You don\'t have that effect for DC. It would be better to pay a few bucks more for a DC relay from a reputable manufacturer off Mouser or similar.
On 5/30/2023 1:44 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:11:14â¯AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 5/30/2023 12:42 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Apples...
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
..Oranges
I can\'t tell because i can\'t read the article.
Note the hosting source: \"NIH\"
Read the abstract. Note that it doesn\'t mention a MECHANICALLY
operated, ELECTRICAL switch but, rather, a GENETIC switch!
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
You are likely concerned with far more than just \"switching time\".
Are the contacts break-before-make or make-before-break?
Yes, some of them short out one or more pins while switching.
Find a *documented* switching mechanism. If you\'re switching
*DC*, expect the switch to be heavily derated. And, expect to
have to factor in some arcing during the transition. You
may be better off with a mercury-wetted *relay*, depending on
your application.
Note that switches are not \"ideal\" even when in steady state
but in *transition*, are complex creatures. A matED contact
will \"bounce\" as it is opened and a matING contact will bounce
as it\'s closing. Ideally, you want to know the time when the
contact is \"in flight\" AND the voltage rating at that point
(assuming any arcing has subsided -- that\'s YOUR calculation
not the switch manufacturer\'s as it depends on your application).
How closely are the actions of ALL poles synchronized
(i.e., does one pole complete its transition before
others have \"broken\" the existing connections)?
Does this degrade over time/temperature?
How much contact bounce?
Plus issues related to your application (e.g., arcing as a circuit
breaks) which hasn\'t been revealed, here.
etc.
I am more concerned with the shorting time.
I can handle less than 1/3 second.
If longer, I would need one to break and one to switch the circuit.
Can you handle a \"complex\" transition period where the circuits
may short and open repeatedly at relatively high frequency?
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 6:13:24â¯AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 5/30/2023 1:44 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:11:14â¯AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 5/30/2023 12:42 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Apples...
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
..Oranges
I can\'t tell because i can\'t read the article.
Note the hosting source: \"NIH\"
Read the abstract. Note that it doesn\'t mention a MECHANICALLY
operated, ELECTRICAL switch but, rather, a GENETIC switch!
My brain registered a NON-BRANDED GENETIC switch.
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
You are likely concerned with far more than just \"switching time\".
Are the contacts break-before-make or make-before-break?
Yes, some of them short out one or more pins while switching.
Find a *documented* switching mechanism. If you\'re switching
*DC*, expect the switch to be heavily derated. And, expect to
have to factor in some arcing during the transition. You
may be better off with a mercury-wetted *relay*, depending on
your application.
Note that switches are not \"ideal\" even when in steady state
but in *transition*, are complex creatures. A matED contact
will \"bounce\" as it is opened and a matING contact will bounce
as it\'s closing. Ideally, you want to know the time when the
contact is \"in flight\" AND the voltage rating at that point
(assuming any arcing has subsided -- that\'s YOUR calculation
not the switch manufacturer\'s as it depends on your application).
How closely are the actions of ALL poles synchronized
(i.e., does one pole complete its transition before
others have \"broken\" the existing connections)?
Does this degrade over time/temperature?
How much contact bounce?
Plus issues related to your application (e.g., arcing as a circuit
breaks) which hasn\'t been revealed, here.
etc.
I am more concerned with the shorting time.
I can handle less than 1/3 second.
If longer, I would need one to break and one to switch the circuit.
Can you handle a \"complex\" transition period where the circuits
may short and open repeatedly at relatively high frequency?
Yes, I only worry about total power dissipation.
Can you handle a welded contact?
Yes, as long as it doesn\'t catch fire. Smoke is OK.
On 5/30/2023 1:44 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:11:14?AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 5/30/2023 12:42 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Apples...
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
..Oranges
I can\'t tell because i can\'t read the article.
Note the hosting source: \"NIH\"
Read the abstract. Note that it doesn\'t mention a MECHANICALLY
operated, ELECTRICAL switch but, rather, a GENETIC switch!
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
You are likely concerned with far more than just \"switching time\".
Are the contacts break-before-make or make-before-break?
Yes, some of them short out one or more pins while switching.
Find a *documented* switching mechanism. If you\'re switching
*DC*, expect the switch to be heavily derated. And, expect to
have to factor in some arcing during the transition. You
may be better off with a mercury-wetted *relay*, depending on
your application.
Note that switches are not \"ideal\" even when in steady state
but in *transition*, are complex creatures. A matED contact
will \"bounce\" as it is opened and a matING contact will bounce
as it\'s closing. Ideally, you want to know the time when the
contact is \"in flight\" AND the voltage rating at that point
(assuming any arcing has subsided -- that\'s YOUR calculation
not the switch manufacturer\'s as it depends on your application).
On Tue, 30 May 2023 06:13:11 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 5/30/2023 1:44 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:11:14?AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 5/30/2023 12:42 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
Anybody got access to this article:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18999467
Apples...
regarding switch time of such switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284624886322
..Oranges
I can\'t tell because i can\'t read the article.
Note the hosting source: \"NIH\"
Read the abstract. Note that it doesn\'t mention a MECHANICALLY
operated, ELECTRICAL switch but, rather, a GENETIC switch!
Or simply a guess? 1/5 to 1/3 second?
You are likely concerned with far more than just \"switching time\".
Are the contacts break-before-make or make-before-break?
Yes, some of them short out one or more pins while switching.
Find a *documented* switching mechanism. If you\'re switching
*DC*, expect the switch to be heavily derated. And, expect to
have to factor in some arcing during the transition. You
may be better off with a mercury-wetted *relay*, depending on
your application.
Note that switches are not \"ideal\" even when in steady state
but in *transition*, are complex creatures. A matED contact
will \"bounce\" as it is opened and a matING contact will bounce
as it\'s closing. Ideally, you want to know the time when the
contact is \"in flight\" AND the voltage rating at that point
(assuming any arcing has subsided -- that\'s YOUR calculation
not the switch manufacturer\'s as it depends on your application).
Be nice.
Here\'s a test on a relay, but the idea is the same.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xamv86ilzp9g8cu/Z476_Fast_Off.jpg?raw=1
In this setup, in the upper two traces you can see the three states:
NC, transition-in-flight, NO. This was done at low current, signal
levels, DC, on two sides of a DPDT relay.
A switch waveform will look similar. The opening transition is almost
perfect but closing is ugly.
Find a *documented* switching mechanism. If you\'re switching
*DC*, expect the switch to be heavily derated. And, expect to
have to factor in some arcing during the transition. You
may be better off with a mercury-wetted *relay*, depending on
your application.
Note that switches are not \"ideal\"Â even when in steady state
but in *transition*, are complex creatures. A matED contact
will \"bounce\" as it is opened and a matING contact will bounce
as it\'s closing. Ideally, you want to know the time when the
contact is \"in flight\" AND the voltage rating at that point
(assuming any arcing has subsided -- that\'s YOUR calculation
not the switch manufacturer\'s as it depends on your application).
On 5/30/2023 6:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
Find a *documented* switching mechanism. If you\'re switching
*DC*, expect the switch to be heavily derated. And, expect to
have to factor in some arcing during the transition. You
may be better off with a mercury-wetted *relay*, depending on
your application.
Note that switches are not \"ideal\" even when in steady state
but in *transition*, are complex creatures. A matED contact
will \"bounce\" as it is opened and a matING contact will bounce
as it\'s closing. Ideally, you want to know the time when the
contact is \"in flight\" AND the voltage rating at that point
(assuming any arcing has subsided -- that\'s YOUR calculation
not the switch manufacturer\'s as it depends on your application).
I can\'t find (online) the more comprehensive reference that I have
locally but here\'s ganssle\'s take on switch bounce. It\'s one of
my go-to documents for folks who THINK they understand the
dynamics of switches. E.g., folks seem to think switches
don\'t bounce when *opening* -- oops! :
Note the observation of a *relay* driven repeatedly by an MCU attached
to a storage scope (hard to drive a *switch* thusly) -- emphasis mine:
\"When the relay OPENED it always had a max bounce time of 2.3 to 2.9 msec,
at speeds from 2.5 to 30 Hz. More variation appeared on contact CLOSURE:
at 2.5 Hz bounces never exceeded 410 µsec, which climbed to 1080 µsec at
30 Hz. Why? I have no idea. But it\'s clear there is some correlation
between fast actuations and more bounce.\"
On Tue, 30 May 2023 14:18:35 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 5/30/2023 6:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
Find a *documented* switching mechanism. If you\'re switching
*DC*, expect the switch to be heavily derated. And, expect to
have to factor in some arcing during the transition. You
may be better off with a mercury-wetted *relay*, depending on
your application.
Note that switches are not \"ideal\" even when in steady state
but in *transition*, are complex creatures. A matED contact
will \"bounce\" as it is opened and a matING contact will bounce
as it\'s closing. Ideally, you want to know the time when the
contact is \"in flight\" AND the voltage rating at that point
(assuming any arcing has subsided -- that\'s YOUR calculation
not the switch manufacturer\'s as it depends on your application).
I can\'t find (online) the more comprehensive reference that I have
locally but here\'s ganssle\'s take on switch bounce. It\'s one of
my go-to documents for folks who THINK they understand the
dynamics of switches. E.g., folks seem to think switches
don\'t bounce when *opening* -- oops! :
Sometimes they don\'t.
Note the observation of a *relay* driven repeatedly by an MCU attached
to a storage scope (hard to drive a *switch* thusly) -- emphasis mine:
\"When the relay OPENED it always had a max bounce time of 2.3 to 2.9 msec,
at speeds from 2.5 to 30 Hz. More variation appeared on contact CLOSURE:
at 2.5 Hz bounces never exceeded 410 µsec, which climbed to 1080 µsec at
30 Hz. Why? I have no idea. But it\'s clear there is some correlation
between fast actuations and more bounce.\"
A relay will twang, namely ring like a bell, for a long time after a
transition. And bells have very complex vibration patterns. The twang
affects future actuations.
Reed relays make terrible analog multiplexers, because the high-Q
mechanical ringing makes voltages in the mag field and takes a long
time to die out.
On Tue, 30 May 2023 14:18:35 -0700, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 5/30/2023 6:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
Reed relays make terrible analog multiplexers, because the high-Q
mechanical ringing makes voltages in the mag field and takes a long
time to die out.
On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 7:50:28â¯AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2023 14:18:35 -0700, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 5/30/2023 6:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
snip
Reed relays make terrible analog multiplexers, because the high-Q
mechanical ringing makes voltages in the mag field and takes a long
time to die out.
The reeds are magnetic, and they are moving inside the actuating coil but they don\'t have any effect on the flux threading the actuating coil after they open or close.
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 2:50:28â¯PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2023 14:18:35 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 5/30/2023 6:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
Find a *documented* switching mechanism. If you\'re switching
*DC*, expect the switch to be heavily derated. And, expect to
have to factor in some arcing during the transition. You
may be better off with a mercury-wetted *relay*, depending on
your application.
Note that switches are not \"ideal\" even when in steady state
but in *transition*, are complex creatures. A matED contact
will \"bounce\" as it is opened and a matING contact will bounce
as it\'s closing. Ideally, you want to know the time when the
contact is \"in flight\" AND the voltage rating at that point
(assuming any arcing has subsided -- that\'s YOUR calculation
not the switch manufacturer\'s as it depends on your application).
I can\'t find (online) the more comprehensive reference that I have
locally but here\'s ganssle\'s take on switch bounce. It\'s one of
my go-to documents for folks who THINK they understand the
dynamics of switches. E.g., folks seem to think switches
don\'t bounce when *opening* -- oops! :
Sometimes they don\'t.
Note the observation of a *relay* driven repeatedly by an MCU attached
to a storage scope (hard to drive a *switch* thusly) -- emphasis mine:
\"When the relay OPENED it always had a max bounce time of 2.3 to 2.9 msec,
at speeds from 2.5 to 30 Hz. More variation appeared on contact CLOSURE:
at 2.5 Hz bounces never exceeded 410 µsec, which climbed to 1080 µsec at
30 Hz. Why? I have no idea. But it\'s clear there is some correlation
between fast actuations and more bounce.\"
A relay will twang, namely ring like a bell, for a long time after a
transition. And bells have very complex vibration patterns. The twang
affects future actuations.
Reed relays make terrible analog multiplexers, because the high-Q
mechanical ringing makes voltages in the mag field and takes a long
time to die out.
I don\'t care about bouncing and/or ringing, as long as they don\'t short out the two throws. Some switches has center disconnect or middle throw, but they are not heavy duty rating. I might have a separate disconnect switch in series with the function switch, perhaps in lock box door type. The function switch is hidden inside the box. When the user open the lock box, the circuit should be disconnected.